Episode 321: Vision Pro Panel with Bryson & Rich

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Tom Bridge (00:01:29):
Hello and welcome to the Mac Admins podcast. I’m your host, Tom Bridge. And Marcus, how are you today?

Marcus Ransom (00:01:34):
I’m, I’m okay. Uh, although the, the fact that I’m still here is a sign of how okay things are because my first child has, um, qualified for a learner’s driver’s license. Um,

Tom Bridge (00:01:47):
Oh dear.

Marcus Ransom (00:01:48):
That’s,

Tom Bridge (00:01:49):
That is both exciting and terrifying. Yeah.

Marcus Ransom (00:01:52):
Like, excited by the fact that she, you know, Harriett put her head down and studied and, you know, passed the test, the online test first go. Um, alright. What comes next is terrifying.

Tom Bridge (00:02:07):
Yes. There is the whole practical exam thing where you have to like, teach them how to drive a vehicle out in meat space. Um, and, uh, you know, that can take years off your life. My friend,

Marcus Ransom (00:02:19):
We, we, we’ve done the starting and stopping and remembering which pedal does which bit first in a car park. And that went, okay, I’m going to, I’m gonna engage the services of a professional for the next bit.

Tom Bridge (00:02:32):
Yeah.

Marcus Ransom (00:02:33):
Yeah. I, I am, I’m going to not watch, I will celebrate the, um, amazing progress once it has completed. Um, but for everybody’s benefit, I really don’t think I need to be there for, for that .

Tom Bridge (00:02:55):
I, you know, it’s really interesting. I’m kind of hoping that by the Charlie is of that age, which is, you know, I guess seven years, six years or two ago. Well, my hope is that like, we’re just not gonna deal with cars.

Marcus Ransom (00:03:07):
Hover bullets, .

Tom Bridge (00:03:10):
Well, my, my whole thought process is like, I can get the Uber app on your phone. They

Charles Edge (00:03:14):
Won’t be self-driving and they won’t be Nope, nope. No, no. Oh, really? .

Marcus Ransom (00:03:21):
It’s safer for them to drive a car on their own, which

Charles Edge (00:03:24):
Says

Tom Bridge (00:03:25):
Something. Oh, well, I guess there’s always Metro. Um, you know, I was gonna say, there’s a bus that picks up right in front of the house

Charles Edge (00:03:32):
Riding on the metro. Yeah. Anyways,

Tom Bridge (00:03:36):
,

Charles Edge (00:03:37):
Other than the impending decade, not even at decades, uh, left for you, Tom. Yes. But other than, other than concerns that are eight or nine years in the future, how have, how was your weekend? I,

Tom Bridge (00:03:49):
You know, pretty stellar. It’s, uh, father’s Day as we were record this. And so one, uh, happy Father’s Day.

Charles Edge (00:03:54):
Yeah. This weekend is like the Queen the King’s our

Marcus Ransom (00:03:57):
Father’s day’s in September. But I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll accept that parade. Oh, where

Charles Edge (00:04:01):
Was last week? Oh, this is the color parade or whatever this week.

Marcus Ransom (00:04:06):
No, that was last

Tom Bridge (00:04:06):
Weekend. Is that right? I don’t know. Unless that was

Marcus Ransom (00:04:08):
Last week. We’ve been overthrown. Yeah. Oh, it’s his actual birthday. Yeah. Tripping. Yeah.

Tom Bridge (00:04:14):
And, and I felt a little bad because I’ve seen a lot of imagery of the trombone player who, um, in the 80 degree heat, I’m sorry, the 20 something degree Celsius heat, um, you know, may not have been ready for that particular weather, um, and is collapsed on the ground. And I hope he’s doing fine now. Um, but in the moment I may have, um, I, I may have chuckled a little bit, I feel a little bit bad about that,

Marcus Ransom (00:04:38):
But something, something sad. Trombone meme, it’s

Tom Bridge (00:04:41):
, correct, the saddest of all trombones, um, for the poor, uh, for the poor trombone player who passed out at the TRO of the color. So, um, that’s hard. Those uniforms are heavy and, uh, they are not breathable. Um, and they’re not meant for, uh, 80 degree heat. So, um, my deepest hope that they’re doing much better and have learned to hydrate a little bit better.

Marcus Ransom (00:05:05):
And also hoping that, you know, we can chuckle, we can laugh and feel bad about it, but that’s gonna be nothing compared to what their colleagues are going to be constantly reminding them about.

Tom Bridge (00:05:17):
Yeah. My hope is that, you know, revenge is the best cut teacher in those particular cases. Um, and you know that they will get their, uh, you know, opportunity to, uh, you know, uh, uh, give as good as they got. Um, with that said, you know, uh, trombones and, uh, hot weather aside, we’ve got, uh, you know, some really fun guests, uh, who have rejoined the podcast. Welcome back to the podcast, Bry and Terrell and Rich Trouten. We’re here to talk about some fun stuff today.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:05:48):
Always. Hello up for talking fun stuff.

Tom Bridge (00:05:51):
Yeah, I’m up for talking Fun stuff. Fun stuff.

Charles Edge (00:05:53):
Truly. And I, I feel like Vision Pro could be the next big Apple product to change the way humans interact with computing devices, which is why we’re all here today. And in this episode, we’ll look at some of the SDKs sensors and other technologies that have been in the making for a decade that make this technology possible. We’ll explore successes and failures of competing platforms and think a little about the Vision Pro in the sense of device management support and what we might be able to do with them in offices that doesn’t involve just playing games for fitness and or fun. Which, you know, this kind of shapes how we might in the future manage and support them once they’re in our organizations. Um, and Organ, I I do find organizations these days want to have like a compelling, um, digital transformation type of story. And this is one of those places where these fall in. So, Bryson and Rich, thanks for joining us to talk through kind of what we want, what we think we’ll get, and how we’ll respond to the ever changing technology landscape. So, I would like to point out, and we will include a link to this in the show notes, but Bryson posted this to Twitter and I couldn’t have thought of better words to convey my own thoughts. So let’s start here to quote Bryson. Um, actually Bryson, why don’t you read it?

Bryson Tyrrell (00:07:20):
. These, these were my immediately, my immediate thoughts right after the keynote wrapped. Um, it’s, it was a, let’s all pause and take a moment to reflect on the last 10 years of Apple Tech and think about how everything came together for this device purpose-built Silicon, the custom display technologies, IR and LIDAR sensors, the ml, ai, ar, SDKs, and, you know, even Swift itself. Like all these things just sort of came together to form the perfect thing that is Vision Pro

Charles Edge (00:07:54):
And the perfect quote unquote thing. That’s a, that’s a really interesting word to use. So, how might we think of the Vision Pro? I mean, apple specifically mentioned it as a quote unquote computer, which is a really port important distinction for all the admins out there. It infers in my mind, at least, that we’ll be able to manage it with M D M. Right? And I guess whose team do we think will get that job? The people who are already managing m devices, devices?

Bryson Tyrrell (00:08:27):
I mean, my perspective on it from a device management perspective. Alright. The thing is actually just an iPad that you wear, like we saw in the keynote that, uh, the entire iPhone and iPad library is gonna work. Day one. The majority of Apple Arcade is gonna work day one. Those will all work using a translation of the interfaces on Multitouch that we use today already. It’s using M two processor. Like the iPad Pros are all using M series chips already. We’d no, look, get Rev to M two. Wait, didn’t, did the iPad Pro get Rev to an M two already? Yes. Oh, see, it’s, yeah, it is just, it’s, it’s a wearable iPad effectively, I think. So it will be manageable and pretty much the same way that you would manage an iPad nowadays, like a cellular iPad or something like that. Like, to me, that’s kind of how this device is going to be treated from an organizational perspective when it comes to how do I provision it, how do I manage it?

Charles Edge (00:09:29):
Right. So I, I guess, you know, uh, Tom and Marcus, you both work at companies who sell MDMs. Like, do you guys, I mean, obviously you’re immediately asking the boss for one to test, right?

Tom Bridge (00:09:48):
I, I mean that’s, I may have, I, I may have told our IT director that like, you know what, be really interesting to see how our platform stacked up on this right now. What’s our login window situation on a, uh, on, on a Vision Pro , uh, you know, how does our M D M uh, enroll these devices? Oh, how does two

Charles Edge (00:10:07):
Factor work?

Tom Bridge (00:10:08):
I mean, like, that’s exactly, come on, come.

Marcus Ransom (00:10:10):
This is an interprise. So how do we bind them to active directory? Um, .

Tom Bridge (00:10:16):
Oh, there’s a hellscape thought for you. Um, you know, I I, I think that it’s gonna be very, very interesting to see the management interfaces that we get with the Vision Pro. ’cause that’s something that we haven’t been, I mean,

Charles Edge (00:10:28):
Imagine the policies like, don’t allow iPad apps to run or require all data in the secure, like, and imagine maids, uh, .

Marcus Ransom (00:10:41):
Maybe this is the bit that’s gonna make maids make absolute sense when it’s, we’ll, we’ll all, you know, in, in two years time, we’ll all be like, ah, I see.

Tom Bridge (00:10:50):
I, well, you know, I think with, we did just see managed Apple IDs get adjusted here. Um, and I certainly think that there’s a good possibility that there’s more to be had there. I I certainly think that, you know, it, it’s gonna be very, very interesting to see what the management interface is for this, because there are things that MDMs can help do for vision, uh, in these cases. You know, here, I think a lot about app stores and things like that, and managing the applications that are available on these devices is certainly going to be something that enterprise organizations have to do, especially what is allowed and not allowed. And this would be a clear way to deliver corporate tools, um, you know, to those things or internally developed applications that are intended for some of those, um, professional use cases. There, you know, was a lot of conversation about, you know, F one racing. Um, obviously F one is, is highly secretive with a lot of like, engineering technology that’s, you know, highly dependent upon tools like this ish, but ish.

Charles Edge (00:11:51):
So of course, I, I guess, uh, rich, have you asked Harold for one yet? , I, I, I have asked

Rich Trouton (00:12:00):
Multiple levels of my management, if we can have this as a, uh, as a, uh, test device, I I have yet to receive a positive response, um,

Tom Bridge (00:12:11):
This

Marcus Ransom (00:12:12):
Whole guys, right? Isn’t there? You’re just waiting for people to get to that part of their to-do list

Rich Trouton (00:12:17):
Though, though, getting back to the whole, how are we gonna manage N M F A with this? How are we gonna do this? How are we gonna do that? Honestly, this is where I see pasky really starting to, uh, come into the room because this would be the kind of thing that, especially if you, you know, I haven’t seen how this interface is going to work, but like, for example, if it can do I tracking where you can look up at a, say a lock icon and just basically blink at it, and then it pulls a pass key from iCloud key chain associated, of course with your managed apple ID and your stuff just opens. Mm-hmm. That’s a very smooth, very intuitive experience that people could work with.

Charles Edge (00:12:56):
Um, yeah. And I, I would definitely trust a retinal scan over a fingerprint, I

Rich Trouton (00:13:01):
Guess. Mm-hmm. I mean that’s, I’m thinking about it. I

Tom Bridge (00:13:03):
Think it’s an IRIS scan in this case. Yep. Um, which is a little bit different than a retina scan. So it’s just little bit more forward in the eye, but still very, very unique. No

Charles Edge (00:13:12):
Matter what it is, you can just put a PIN code to bypass it. Right. I mean, let’s for now.

Tom Bridge (00:13:19):
I mean, I certainly can see, you know, uh, this is a place where I, I think maybe finally we’re in a state where, you know that because of the way in which that device is fixed to your person in the way that phones are not, iPads are not, laptops are not, that you can maybe at that point use that in, in lieu of, you know, a an initial credential like that.

Charles Edge (00:13:44):
Theoretically, I guess you could say. Okay, well, if you lose your eye, you’ve got a finger on another device. So we can regenerate not the eye, but the key for the finger.

Tom Bridge (00:13:58):
You know, we’ve had a lot of jokes recently, you know, internally, uh, around, you know, uh, a, a a, um, the, the, what we’re calling internally the Berlin scenario, um, which is where, you know, you and your laptop are parted from one another, and of course they also get your finger. Um, and, you know, we, we, you know, we’re trying to game this out in terms of like, right, how serious is it to, to, you know, how serious is it to, to rely on these kind of things and, you know, hey, you fell asleep in the wrong Berlin nightclub, ’cause you got slipped a Mickey and now you short a finger in your laptop. Is that enough to, uh, you know, really kind of circumvent a lot of the, you know, the functionality that’s all out there. And of course, we go into really dark and terrible places at that point, which feels more like an episode of Black Mirror Know

Marcus Ransom (00:14:43):
Feels like, you know, something you have and something that you have absolutely no recollection of for the last 48 hours.

Rich Trouton (00:14:51):
Well, I mean, going back to the, to the eye recognition thing, there’s always the, uh, the Nick Fury scenario where he’s like, yeah, you took out my eye, but my eye still registers . Yeah, there you go. I’ve got a unique pattern in this destroyed eye of mine, and I’m using that for authentication.

Charles Edge (00:15:08):
So, and now

Rich Trouton (00:15:09):
I wanna see Winter Soldier again. Yeah.

Charles Edge (00:15:12):
So another thing I’ve been thinking about a lot is my experiences with ar vr in the past. And I feel like, goodness, it was maybe not the nineties, but the early two thousands that I first got, like those musics glasses. I don’t know if you any of you ever used those, but they were like six 40 by four 80, but they were so close to the eye that they felt at the time, like an IMAX theater, you know? Um, and then over the years, I feel like I’ve bought and typically returned or sold every single device that I could get my hands on. Um, but Rich, the reason I asked you specifically on is you’ve got probably the most experience of, of any of us with AR or VR specifically type of devices. So what, what has your experience been like? ’cause mine has not been great. Like, drawing the line around where I am and then not being able to go beyond it and getting frustrated and feeling like it, when I swivel my head, there’s like a delay, and then my whole world comes bouncing to where I just swiveled my head too. Like, there’s so many things that I just hate, hate, hate, but I have a feeling that I’m gonna love, love, love soon. So what, what was your experience like?

Rich Trouton (00:16:33):
So, yeah, so for, for background, I bought an Oculus quest. The, the first generation of it. The one that was the first one to be truly wireless. You didn’t have a cord heading into the back of your, uh, your, your computer. Um, you were 100% free to move around the cabin. Um, so I have, uh, used it, uh, largely for exercise. Uh, I have the Game Beat Saber, which is essentially, I have lightsabers and I’m using them to kill blocks. Uh, it’s excellent exercise. Um, it’s a fun game. It, it is a very fun game. Um, and that is really the main thing that I have used my Oculus quest for. I’ve tried using it for other things, but the, the main thing that I stuck with was this, essentially this exercise routine. Uh, ’cause I tried, well, let me watch movies, uh, with my Oculus quest on, and the thing is sucker’s heavy. And, um, it is

Charles Edge (00:17:28):
Neck gets tired,

Rich Trouton (00:17:29):
Your neck gets tired. And

Charles Edge (00:17:32):
Yeah, that was my experience.

Rich Trouton (00:17:33):
It’s, it’s just one of those things that unless you manage to position yourself in such a way, is like to try to take most of the weight off. But even there, you basically have the visor, you know, pressing down into your face. And so after a while it is uncomfortable. Um, now when you’re working out, you largely don’t notice that because you’ve got the music going and you’re moving around and you’re, you’re shifting and you’re weaving and you’re dodging. But when you stop to just like watch a movie, that distraction’s not there. So you really see, uh, this, this thing is a few pounds, and it’s on my head and my head’s not really used to holding up that much weight. Um, so that’s really what I’ve, you know, the, I know other folks are using them, they’re more, you know, they’re, they like ’em better for that purpose of watching movies and other stuff with them.

(00:18:24):
But that’s largely been my experience. I found something that worked for me, but everything else, I, I just really don’t use it. Uh, and the thi and my girls have been, I have two daughters and they’re like, uh, I, they have a friend who has an Oculus question. They’re like, can I get one? Can I get one? Can I get one? I’m like, yeah, here’s my problem. Um, when you have that thing on, you can’t see anything else except for what’s on the display in front of you. And that display does not show you other people furniture. Uh, really anything that, that’s why, like Charles, you referenced having to draw a circle around yourself. You really need that. Uh, and fortunately in my office, I have enough free space that I can draw that circle around me, and I can be fairly confident that I’m not gonna hit anything within that boundary that I’ve drawn for myself.

(00:19:13):
But one of the first things I saw with the Vision Pro, I was like, oh, thank goodness, you can see through this thing mm-hmm. , you can, you can see at least sort of your surroundings. And I’m like, because I, one of the things I was most afraid of for my girls was that, you know, first of all, they’re only gonna get one headset. Uh, and that means that one of ’em is now gonna be dancing around doing whatever, uh, totally blind and they’d like to do stuff with each other. And I could see, I could see the first punch out coming, and it would be the first punch would be an accident. The second one from the other sibling was not .

Charles Edge (00:19:51):
No. Yeah, yeah. You know, there are tools out there like, um, Arbor XR that can manage quests. Um, I doubt that you ever, but maybe I, I don’t know. Did you ever look at like what the management options were, how to lock them down? I, because your kids probably play with it too, not just you.

Rich Trouton (00:20:12):
Well, no, I, I pretty much . No,

Charles Edge (00:20:14):
The kids can’t touch it

Rich Trouton (00:20:15):
That well. Honestly, that’s been my thing, because first I didn’t want them fighting over it. And the other thing was, I was like, this is my exercise tool. I can’t have this broken . And I, at, you know, when I bought it, it was $500. Uh, and I did not feel like shelling that out on, you know, on the regular, in case my kid’s broke it. Um, and that was one other thing that, uh, that came to my mind was, uh, when Apple rolled out the 34 99 price tag, I was like, well, does make the Oculus look downright affordable in comparison? Uh,

Charles Edge (00:20:50):
Well, yeah. The, the Mac, the, the original Mac, um, made a lot of, made the t r s 80, you know, look downright Yeah. Cheap, you know, so, um, yeah. I mean, uh, and, and any of the, ’cause when the Mac was released, there were app, there were tools out there to put windowing interfaces on top of other operating systems. There was gym there, there were a bunch of others. Um, and, but the Mac was cheaper than almost all of them. Right. So, you know, um, I I, I, I mean, I, I’ve tested enough of these devices, you get what you pay for. If you get something with really modern chips, with really, um, more kind of improved interfaces, uh, then you can definitely spend upwards of that. Yeah. Um, I, I’m not sure that you get the same enterprise security experience. Like, you know, one thing that immediately jumps to my mind is single app mode.

(00:21:53):
You know, if I, if I’m, let’s say that my marketing team is outfitted with a dozen of these and they’re going to conferences, showcasing my tool inside that as an example. Like, I still wanna manage them. I still wanna wipe them and mm-hmm. activation lock them when they’re gone. Right. So I wanna put ’em in single app mode so that, you know, you put ’em on and you only have my experience, um, which isn’t just an app, it’s an experience, I guess more of a larger atomic operation. But, um, so, so your version thus far rich of management has been, no, you can’t touch it because it’s 500 bucks and your kids, and you’ll break it because kids break everything.

Rich Trouton (00:22:40):
Yeah. That’s, that’s, uh, I don’t, I don’t think I put it in as blunt in terms of that to my kids, but, uh, one that I, I do, uh, it stays outta my office and, uh, well, when I’m not in the office, I, I lock up, so mm-hmm. You know, it just hasn’t been something that they’ve been able to have access to, except of course, at their friend’s house. And I’m just like, I’m sorry girls, it’s just, it’s too expensive right now. Um, but the Vision Pro, because it solves that, shall we say, the sibling punching problem, because now you can actually see your surroundings , or at least if they, if they’re punching now, it’s ’cause they can see their siblings . Right.

(00:23:18):
Uh, you know, that actually would put me more in favor of getting them a vision pro. I’m not, I’m not going to at this point because of the price tag, but, you know, as in terms of that safety thing, uh, that actually makes, uh, me more, you know, more comfortable with the idea because I’ll know that they’ll be able to see things like the coffee table in the middle of the living room, where, you know, right now with the Oculus, it’s just what you see, you know, what you see is on the screen and the screen doesn’t show you your surroundings. And that’s, that’s just the way it is.

Charles Edge (00:23:54):
Yeah. Um, so I, I feel like I, I asked that as a leading question knowing that Rich had a quest, because honestly it was you saying that you liked the quest for the specific app that you like, that caused me to be like, okay, I’ll try a quest too. You know? Um, and no, uh, I, I didn’t really dig the quest personally, but, um, I know plenty of people who have, and in fact, I had played that game that you mentioned before. So like, you know, at a friend’s house. Um, but I, I guess, you know, this question’s open for Bryson, Marcus, Tom, who else has used ar vr type tech? Um, other than I guess, but maybe including, if you feel like going into it, ar based apps on phones like the old Pokemon Go or, um, three D print scanners or whatever. Well, I’ll

Tom Bridge (00:24:50):
Go super fast because my experience has largely been limited to, you know, headset experiences, you know, all at friends’ houses and things like that. Here’s the only thing I know about all of them. They make me violently. Mm mm Like, I can’t wear them for about more than five minutes before I lose all frame of reference. Yeah. Up is down, sideways is left. And, you know, that might be, you know, timeline goes sideways. It’s not a good experience for

Charles Edge (00:25:17):
That might be that delay. I mentioned where you, you, you, you shift your head, right? Because you’re looking right. And then there’s just this delay that’s just enough to make you like . Like, oh, like I’m running a pirate ship right now. Like the one Bryson has.

Marcus Ransom (00:25:34):
I had a colleague a couple of years ago who still hung out in Second Life, which surprised me. ’cause I thought that was Oh, yeah. Long, long ago. I thought that was gone. Yeah, no, still hanging out there doing things. No, it’s still going. And he was explaining to me when the Oculus came out, they found that adding a virtual nose in your field of view was the key to not getting violently ill. That it gave your brain something to focus on and position a point of reference, some kind of datum. So, you know, I, I wonder if

Charles Edge (00:26:02):
Apple has fully immersive

Marcus Ransom (00:26:04):
Yeah. Founder. If you

Charles Edge (00:26:05):
Don’t have the,

Marcus Ransom (00:26:06):
A better way to deal with that. So what about you, Bryson? What’s your experience been with ar vr tech?

Bryson Tyrrell (00:26:13):
So this, this might be a topic lead, I don’t know, but, um, so I have had very limited hands-on experience with any sort of VR tech and that limited experience was virtual boy demo sets in Blockbuster way back when. So like, that’s the extent of my hands-on.

Charles Edge (00:26:34):
That was a long time ago ago. We’re all dating ourselves now, , but I, I

Rich Trouton (00:26:39):
Remember those gave me a headache.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:26:41):
Yeah. Oh yeah. The red, the, the red lines . But like, I’ve, like, for the last 10 years as this has actually like finally become a thing. I’ve been watching the space and I’ve had like, a little bit of envy, but nothing has actually like, grabbed me. But it’s been for interesting reasons because everything has been so very much gaming focused. And if you know me, you know that I do love video games, but like VR video games just have not been all that great. You know, they’re Beat Saber is a breakout hit, but it’s also very, a very much a stationary VR experience. Half-Life. Alex, I think was the first breakout you’re actually in exploring a world as the individual in that world. And it was done extremely well. But that involved, um, steams headsets, steams controller apparatus to actually make like the finger and hand movements all work and all of that stuff.

(00:27:38):
And the thing about this is like, you know, you look at that, you look at the, you look at, uh, the, is it the vibe, the HTC vibe, I think, um, that you look, you look at the, you know, like Meta’s headsets, like all of them have incompatibilities across their platforms, which means that like, some games aren’t available on all of them. Some games behave a little bit differently if you move between them. But they’re all very much like the, the market’s mostly all games. And what’s struck, well, . Yeah, but like that, that’s the o that’s the o that’s the only thing I’ve, I’ve seen that’s remotely successful as a, as an application of the headset. I’ll say it that way. Um, let’s not even talk about the Metaverse at all. .

Charles Edge (00:28:22):
Yeah. No, I, over again, isn’t it?

Bryson Tyrrell (00:28:25):
With less real estate

Charles Edge (00:28:26):
Because it’s fake. Yeah, yeah. . But like,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:28:30):
Apple comes out with X R O Ss, oh, I’m sorry. Uh, vision oss Vision OS X R OSS was mentioned numerous times in the, in the WWC videos. So that was a late game, uh, name change. Uh,

Tom Bridge (00:28:47):
Well, they pun pun clearly in the talk show that basically like, yeah, the name didn’t leak. You know why? Because we didn’t tell anyone. two can keep a three, can keep a secret,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:29:00):
Except so many people knew that it was called X R O S before WWC hit .

Charles Edge (00:29:06):
Apple has a new security team. Yeah. No one’s dead

Tom Bridge (00:29:10):
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Bryson Tyrrell (00:30:14):
The whole, the whole thing with v with, uh, uh, vision Pro. I don’t want it for any gaming aspects. It’s everything else. Like neither do I, it’ll finally deliver on things that I realized I actually do want out of that. Like, you’re all up on a 48 inch ole panel right now. I could have five of those if I had that headset.

Marcus Ransom (00:30:41):
Yeah.

Charles Edge (00:30:42):
Yeah. I mean, it, it is worth mentioning like the top apps for Quest are, you know, beat Saber was the breakout success. And a selling a few thousand copies isn’t exactly gonna make anyone a, a billionaire, right? But, um, no Man, sky Elder Scrolls, Tetris, um, you mentioned Half-Life, Alex, but you know, on the business side there are apps like Shape or, um, nano or Precision, and I would say they mostly fall into kind of this design bucket where you’re right. Building but like three D things, but HoloLens, which I still

Bryson Tyrrell (00:31:23):
Has owned that space for the most part, hasn’t it? Like HoloLens is still out there. Microsoft is still doing that

Charles Edge (00:31:31):
Well on the, on the creativity and design aspect. But when it comes to the training aspect, I think ViiV is, is one of the top ones there, um, because they have more of a centralized management piece. Um, and then I think, uh, the next one is, is really the meetings and kind of collaboration space, which I think Apple did a really good job speaking to that market specifically, because every one of their, not everyone, but a bunch of their videos showed, you know, someone talking to people at work through, through, you know, whether the sort of,

Marcus Ransom (00:32:11):
The bit that spoke to me about this, and I think it sort of links into what everyone’s saying is use case. When you look at those, um, examples you just mentioned, Charles, they’re all pretty minor and just like a tiny little blip in the radar where none of it’s really taken off in the way something like yeah. An iPhone or an iPad, or even the Apple Watch has where it’s become sort of ubiquitous and just, you know, infiltrated into society to the point where people can’t do without them. It’s No, no, no. Trust me, this is great. Try it, try it, and, oh, okay. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I think my, my first experience with VR was, I think it was 1992 where I was studying industrial design. And this company called W Industries based out of the UK built these sort of, it’s like an arcade system for virtual reality, where there were two headsets.

(00:33:02):
And I, I’ve stuck a, a link to it in the show notes, and you could put these on, and it was really simple where there were like these two, like eight bit chessboards with stairs between them and you, you, you know, your friend was sitting on the other one and you’d be able to move your head and there was so much lag. Um, and the university where I was studying had a, a center for vr, which was inside a Faraday cage because it was seen to be so cutting edge that people were gonna steal this technology. And it was amazing. And everyone’s thinking about the possibilities, but it never went anywhere because there were so many possibilities. But no one had actually been able to achieve any of this. And, you know, most of it was gaming or people really trying to force VR into an area where, yeah,

(00:33:51):
It wasn’t really biting and seeing Apple take an entirely different, um, approach to this where rather than it being completely immersive and you are, you know, you are gonna be in an entirely separate reality. It’s like, no, no, this is just, you’re still where you are and able to see everything where you are, but we’re just gonna overlay, it’s like, you know, heads up display for life rather than a fighter pilot or, or a car. So it’s, yeah, more just a different way of engaging with the content mm-hmm. you’re currently engaging with through however many screens. Yeah.

Charles Edge (00:34:27):
I, I feel like I would say like the Commodore 64 was an equal if not better gaming device than the Apple two. The Apple two was far better a device than the Commodore 64, but it’s that general purpose aspect. Yeah. I mean that, that’s why the B B C Micro was better than, um, and I’m gonna duck because I just got home from London and people might be throwing things at me from London, but better than the CX spectrum. Um, you know, some of these older platforms were built for very specific tasks or like, oh, this is better for gaming. And I would say the Oculus quest, if you don’t mind the the graphics specifically is a, a good gaming device for the most part. Um, it’s that when you’re moving into the general purpose, and this is where the application to, you know, what about work and one of the other, uh, software categories for the Quest, because the Quest can be, especially the Quest two and beyond a computer, um, is security software. So McAfee, stuff like that. Um, and you can deliver it from their centralized store. I, I’ve never tried to like do managed app config type stuff where you’re like trying to remotely configure it to do the thing that you want it to do, or if you have to rely on the person to enable it to do the thing that you want to do. But, um, that, that kind of, to me gets into the, the piece about, you know, can we manage

Bryson Tyrrell (00:36:01):
Security agents on headset? Sounds god awful. I’m just

Marcus Ransom (00:36:06):
. Right? Um,

Charles Edge (00:36:07):
Whereas, whereas security agents on an iPad don’t seem awful, because we’ve all been experiencing that and it’s been seamless because it’s not a third party agent. It’s a first party agent called M D

Bryson Tyrrell (00:36:22):
M. And, and here we have an iPad that you put on your face.

Marcus Ransom (00:36:25):
Right. So I’ve got, I’ve got an idea here. I hope nobody’s listening because we may need to patent this, but D l p for, for these devices,

Charles Edge (00:36:33):
You can’t patent it after you say it out

Marcus Ransom (00:36:35):
Loud, physical, turn it out there, physical, like little shutters that come down where, you know, ’cause really stopping you looking somebody stuff. Oh, somebody is, is, you know, somebody’s made that, it sounds like the sort of, oh, I’m pretty sure that

Tom Bridge (00:36:47):
Sounds like those, those, uh, those, those, those glasses from Hitchhiker’s Sky in the G Yeah,

Marcus Ransom (00:36:52):
The guy, yeah. . Or even I’m thinking this is just the little, the little switches that you put over your webcams that smash the screens when you close them. I’m just thinking a whole new market for fud.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:37:04):
Oh, curtain. No, they curtains. No, honestly, all the cameras, yeah, curtains on there. We vision, bro.

Marcus Ransom (00:37:11):
Of course.

Rich Trouton (00:37:12):
Truthfully, I mean, what, when I first saw the, the Vision Pro and I saw them using like you doing Keynote and doing numbers and doing all that kind of stuff, first thing I thought was, this is gonna be great for people who are on, uh, a business trip on an airplane. Because I don’t know if you guys have like, uh, you know, been on a plane recently and looked up the aisle, you could see like 14 dudes working on Excel and there’s a whole, you could do a whole lot of shoulder surfing if you really wanted to.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:37:40):
I do. Well,

Marcus Ransom (00:37:40):
This,

Charles Edge (00:37:41):
Some of us have privacy filters. , yes.

Marcus Ransom (00:37:43):
, but even, even then. Yeah.

Rich Trouton (00:37:46):
But, but this is gonna be something where you can, you can eliminate all that shoulder surfing, uh, potential un unless, unless someone like manages to stand directly in front of you, there’s no way they can see anything. And even if they are standing directly in front of you, what can they see?

Marcus Ransom (00:38:05):
Or hits you over the back of the head with a wrench and takes it off before it’s doing one of its regular scans to try and look at what you were looking at.

Rich Trouton (00:38:12):
Well, you know, that that’s, there’s an XKCD there for there some, uh, somewhere. But, uh, and

Charles Edge (00:38:19):
Since Tom already mentioned, uh, Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, you know, there your world could also explode

Rich Trouton (00:38:25):
that too. Yeah. But you know, I was looking at that and I was like, okay, this is really good because it, it is a way to enforce privacy for a business traveler in a way that maybe they haven’t been able to have before. And, you know, they can also, you know, from the outside, are they working on a business document or are they watching a movie? It looks all the same, you know? Mm-hmm.

Marcus Ransom (00:38:49):
or, or more the Bryson’s point. You can really rack up staff on Dex and racking without needing all of that space for those five, you know, widescreen displays for them to see everything. Just enough room to be able to turn their head to the left and right. Yep. And away we go.

Rich Trouton (00:39:05):
The other thing that I’d really love to see, to go along with this is like a glove, or even just like fingertip attachments, you can get that haptic force feedback. You want

Charles Edge (00:39:14):
A power glove could call up the power gloves,

Marcus Ransom (00:39:16):
,

Rich Trouton (00:39:17):
You know that,

Charles Edge (00:39:19):
Oh wait, they don’t use Power PC anymore, sorry.

Rich Trouton (00:39:22):
No, no. But, but not in like glove that, but something, something very, something very thin. Something that gives you that force feedback. ’cause you know, at this point we’re talking like a virtual keyboard and you know, you’re gonna look a little weird from the outside, you know, as you type away on on your, uh, you know, your tray table in front of you. But, you know, that is, you know, going back to the idea of this is an iPad on your face, you have an iPad, you’ve got, uh, you can move stuff around, you can, you know, type, you can do actual work. Um, so, you know, I do think the business potential of this is pretty huge. And I also think at this point, I was thinking about this some more, you know, we’re kind of at the, uh, in terms of like mobile devices analogy, you know, there was before the iPhone came along and before Android came along, you know, there was like a whole bunch of stuff. There was Windows ce, there was, you know, Palm West, there was Blackberry, you know, you had all, I had them all, you had them all.

Charles Edge (00:40:25):
Life was hell. ,

Rich Trouton (00:40:27):
You have this fragmentation, and I think this is mm-hmm. , this may be one of those moments where we’re gonna see, uh, another kind if Apple gets this right, this grand convergence.

Charles Edge (00:40:38):
That’s an interesting, so I feel like Blackberry Enterprise Server set the standard. Yeah. Apple and, and Exchange ActiveSync policies started the process of standardization. Um, and then Apple conformed to a e Ss policies, but then added the M D M client. And I feel like as long as we have M D M client here, we’re picking up where we left off with everything else, but maybe we need a couple more policies for specific things. Like, oh, don’t allow this sensor. Because if I know that fact about my employees, I might be liable for potentially having known that fact about my employees. Like, oh, you’ve got high blood or whatever. Um, not high blood

Marcus Ransom (00:41:28):
Pressure, but I’m, I’m, I’m interested in, you know, seeing the trajectory that the watch took where we’re now just being announced that we’re going to get M D M controls for it and they’re very minimal and specific M d m controls. Well,

Charles Edge (00:41:41):
I, I suppose, but that was different. The, yeah. The watch is a kit that extends your iPhone. Yeah. Um, as opposed to this, which is from stand standalone stand

Bryson Tyrrell (00:41:53):
Computer, the watch only became standalone in the last couple of years, right? Yeah. Like they finally cut the cord, right?

Charles Edge (00:42:00):
Yeah. But, but all data that went to it was going through either I through the phone, either iCloud chain or wasn’t m

Bryson Tyrrell (00:42:08):
Payload to control, um, syncing to the Apple watch, I believe.

Charles Edge (00:42:12):
Yeah. Yeah. But it, it wasn’t, uh, I

Bryson Tyrrell (00:42:15):
Mean it was, well, Rich’s grim monolith, so it must so

Charles Edge (00:42:17):
To speak,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:42:18):
Worked all that well.

Charles Edge (00:42:19):
Uh, oh, ,

Rich Trouton (00:42:20):
Well, I was, I was, I was, I was gonna say the, the cut the cord reminded me that the vision, uh, pro at this point does have that cable for the, uh, the battery, which was the battery patch that I, that I was just like, nah, I don’t like that. Because that is one thing that the Oculus Quest did do, right? Is that they, the battery’s built into the headset, you can, uh, plug into, add additional power. But if you wanna just, you know, do, like, you don’t need anything else, it can be completely cordless. And that would, is it gonna

Marcus Ransom (00:42:51):
Be like the, is it gonna be like the iMac where we’ll be able to have ethernet into that battery pack as well for

Bryson Tyrrell (00:42:57):
? I, I’m actually not upset about the battery pack. Like it can slip into my back pants pocket. It’s a pound plus. That’s not on my head. I, I’m willing to forgive them for that. I mean, they, they probably could, could have chosen to not make it outta a glass of metal and, you know, I would’ve forgiven them even more. But like,

Charles Edge (00:43:17):
And what make it out of soda? You

Bryson Tyrrell (00:43:19):
Know what, Apple’s got all sorts of materials, research staff, I’m pretty sure they’ve got something cool up their sleeve, but they love aluminum.

Charles Edge (00:43:27):
Mm. Yeah. They have

Bryson Tyrrell (00:43:29):
Staph metallurgists for

Charles Edge (00:43:31):
Crying. They only love aluminum if it’s brushed

Bryson Tyrrell (00:43:34):
Anodized .

Charles Edge (00:43:35):
That’s true. Anodized. So, yeah. Yep. Yeah. So I, I feel like we’ve talked about the things that people have done with these devices, but I guess, um, other than a privacy filter, because it’s a very expensive privacy filter, I think you can buy them at Best Buy for $15, um, if you just buy the privacy filter without the, uh, attachment of the Vision Pro for 3,500. But what do you think people will do? My God,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:44:07):
In the future?

Rich Trouton (00:44:08):
I, I thought, I thought of, I thought of one thing right away. I cannot wait for the first cop to pull over someone in Silicon Valley who’s wearing one of these on his face, and he has his Tesla set for, for, for autopilot. And he’s gonna be like, the cars driving itself. Man, I can watch this movie.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:44:24):
Uh,

Charles Edge (00:44:25):
Wow.

Marcus Ransom (00:44:26):
Keeping an eye on the corner of my eyes

Charles Edge (00:44:28):
Happen. So it’s

Rich Trouton (00:44:29):
Totally sooner than you think it’s gonna

Bryson Tyrrell (00:44:31):
Happen. That’s gonna happen. No, that’s gonna happen the day that the thing comes out. Gonna be some Tesla bro in San Francisco. Yeah, because I, I’ve seen the YouTube shorts, I know what they do when auto pilot pilot is turned on. It’s bad.

Charles Edge (00:44:44):
I’ve seen the YouTube shorts .

Tom Bridge (00:44:47):
Well, I mean, you know, that somebody’s gonna go out there and try and just get arrested for the notoriety of it all too. I mean, you know, I, I fully expect that there are gonna be people who try and abuse this for it’s good content, man, or for bad uses,

Charles Edge (00:45:00):
. It’s just . Okay. So, oh God, let’s put the negative crap to the side and move on to the positive stuff. I’ll go first. So I feel like in the era of microservices, Xcode Plus, let’s say my a my Lambdas plus my, uh, key management services, all this other stuff, like a big three D editor to be able to take in all of the things that are required to be able to build larger services.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:45:34):
I feel like you’re teeing me up for something

Charles Edge (00:45:35):
Here would be . Oh, man, you said Lambda. That was, I can clearly, I can imagine some crazy workflow creation. I don’t wanna say low code or no code because I’m fine with all the code, but like, just make it simpler for me to grok, if that makes sense. Like, give me an I d E that spreads across all my, so I’m going to think, think further than that.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:46:04):
I’m gonna plug,

Charles Edge (00:46:05):
Go look. I think pair programming added into that, where being able to have all of that and be able to have other people interact with that as well. Or a chat g p t overlay. Like write me a microservice and then like flick it up with your hand to where you, and you’ll write all

Rich Trouton (00:46:21):
This. I mean, honestly,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:46:22):
This is the test will pass and you know, it’s good, right? Hey,

Charles Edge (00:46:28):
, I honestly, I’ve got about an 80% hit rate on the tests, by the way, the fun of the app. I just wrote .

Rich Trouton (00:46:37):
I know you are. I do see a lot of potential for collaboration in terms of pair programming and things like this, because now, you know, because para programming assumes that you two are sitting right next to each other. Uh, and you know, one of you is, I understand, uh, the, the model correctly. Basically, one of you is programming the other one’s, uh,

Charles Edge (00:46:56):
Criticizing washing over your shoulder, criticizing

Rich Trouton (00:46:59):
Yeah. You know, like being that second set of eyes, I’m gonna be kind, it’s that second set of eyes on the code. But, you know, yeah. Now, now that, now that can happen, um, you know, wherever, you know, this could be a huge boon for remote workers who really do wanna have that, uh, yeah, that, that shared experience with a, with a colleague and, uh, now it’s a lot simpler because you can actually just join that space together and you’re both in that space together, and it’s not, you don’t have the separation that you almost necessarily get with something like Zoom today.

Charles Edge (00:47:32):
Right? I, I do that with Zoom with my team today, and I do find every now and then with like an auto complete, um, I might be like, wait, what did you see there? And how did you, what did you tap on? Um, there, there is a huge thing I think from like, if I could visualize what someone’s tapping as they’re, um, testing my software, uh, as, as a UX researcher, let’s say mm-hmm. , that would be super, like I, I can see tons of uses there. I, um, I, I do miss the day when I could just look over the shoulder of someone and see what their fingers are touching because there are keystrokes that I can’t see that they’re calling an X code today. Um, so that would be useful. But for the most part, like if I see that they tap type and or tap the first three letters of the name of a function and it goes to auto complete, like I can see the disclosure and I can see how that proceeds, if that makes sense.

Rich Trouton (00:48:39):
Yeah. And I’m also thinking from a, like a tech support perspective, uh,

Charles Edge (00:48:42):
Oh, no, that’s huge. Potentially.

Rich Trouton (00:48:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Now, now you’ll actually be able to see very clearly that yep. That caps lock light is on and, uh,

Charles Edge (00:48:51):
that would, yeah. Or, or

Marcus Ransom (00:48:56):
The, uh, or the coffee cups sitting on the escape key and ah, there’s your problem. Yeah.

Rich Trouton (00:49:01):
Oh, and it gets rid of the coffee cup sitting on the escape key, because now that that keyboard doesn’t actually exist, so there’s no way for the coffee cup to sit on it at

Marcus Ransom (00:49:09):
All. You, your nose rings leaning against the virtual escape key. There’s your problem.

Charles Edge (00:49:14):
I

Marcus Ransom (00:49:15):
Training is another example. So with, with training, when you’re doing remote training, one of the things I loved about in-person training was the interactions outside of or alongside of the actual coursework. And that’s something that’s really been missing with it being virtual. And as, as whenever I’ve done in, in instructing, often it’s what people are not saying or what they’re not doing, that lets you realize, okay, that that particular bit hasn’t sunk in. I’m gonna need to go over that again to try and make sure we’ve got some understanding there. Especially in a group environment where all of a sudden you realize one person has turned their camera off and has given up, and being able to identify those situations a lot earlier and, you know,

Charles Edge (00:50:05):
Right.

Marcus Ransom (00:50:05):
Get the, get the Yeah. Like

Rich Trouton (00:50:07):
Training’s going. You can see that expression on their face where they’re just like, ha

Charles Edge (00:50:11):
Well, so that’s an interesting thing. Their entire fields and Core Milk can definitely tap into this with the eyeball sensors and the, the ability to understand what your voice is, but their entire field’s on. Is the user distracted? Is the user frustrated? Is the user insert any emotion here? Um, because if I know that they’re distracted, then I might be boring them. If I know that they’re frustrated, I might be ahead of them. So as a trainer, how can I pull in? Having said that, training is one of those weird places where since the sixties we’ve been trying to have that breakout company who makes boatloads of money, and no one’s done it perfectly just yet. So I’m curious to see every generation of tech, I’m like, who’s gonna finally nail the education piece? And no one ever does, you know, controlled data probably being the worst case. Um, with, with their Play-Doh.

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Charles Edge (00:52:39):
Bryson, you were trying to say something about ides? I feel like,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:52:42):
So Apple, apple was leaning on this in the keynote, you know, I’m hearing a lot of it here. Like the, the collaboration aspects, you know, that remote engagement aspects, you know, I’m looking at this thing somewhat differently in like, what a boon it could potentially be for my individual productivity, because I have not been exci so excited about a computing paradigm like this since the iPhone itself came out. Um hmm. Like, and this is,

Charles Edge (00:53:10):
Which is funny, I was never excited about the iPhone, you’re Steve Bomber. It wasn’t until like, it wasn’t until like version three five that I was like, okay, I’ll give up my IPAC and or Blackberry and or, you know, whatever flavor of the month I was using.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:53:25):
So like, this is a self-serving use case in, in a certain way, but like combining a couple of things that we saw from the WWE e c sessions as well as the keynote itself. Um, if I was on this call or not on this call, I’m sorry. So like, if I was wearing the headset and I was working, I have my Mac over here, which has everything on it that I use day to day, including a lot of, uh, a few IDs, right? But I’m, I’m in, I’m in virtual or a vision oss, and if I’m in Vision oss, I can look at my Mac and bring up my 48 inch canvas that I currently have today and work on all that stuff. But because the headset is a device tied in with my Apple, ID tied in potentially with Xcode. And if I’m building an app and I’m iterating on it, I’m pushing the app as I’m doing my builds to the headset and it is displaying over here, not obstructing my development environment.

(00:54:21):
And I have this fast feedback loop where I’m glancing over here, I’m working in my ides, I’m working with my tool sets, and I can glance back over here now and actually interact with the latest build of the app that just refreshed and they’re separate and I’m able to like, you know, independently iterate and then plus the device that’s actually doing the compiling. And, uh, all the code work is not sharing resources with simulating the application that I’m working on. They’re separate and the headset’s driving my, you know, testing environment. It’s, it’s so cool to think about that.

Charles Edge (00:55:02):
Yeah, I mean, just grab a block in Unity, drag it somewhere. Um, as far as Id Unity experiences, I can imagine doing that long

Bryson Tyrrell (00:55:13):
Term again with Apple. Yeah, they’re Unity said in one of their sessions, they were working with Apple for two years, like it in, in their, in one of the two Unity sessions. Like, uh, the Unity lead said that they were working with Apple for two years before the announcement. Like none of this was pulled out of a hack to appease the market. Like this was serious long-term planning on Apple’s part.

Charles Edge (00:55:39):
Yeah. Lidar,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:55:41):
Why did you put a LIDAR sensor, the iPad of all things ? What possible use would that have? Oh, well now you have a whole bunch of developers that know how to use the LIDAR sensor that’s built .

Charles Edge (00:55:54):
I see what they did there.

Bryson Tyrrell (00:55:56):
Uh, you see what they did there, ?

Charles Edge (00:55:58):
Yeah. It wasn’t just for people who wanna photocopy physical objects by putting an iPad on a carousel and making ss t l files by having it go around the thing that you’re trying to three D scan, right? , oh my

Rich Trouton (00:56:12):
Lord. O c r. This is gonna be a huge boon for anyone who does a ton of O C R, because now they put this thing on, they look at the thing, boom,

Charles Edge (00:56:22):
Instant, instant previews the killer app. Yeah, the . Yeah. Yeah. Can you, can you fax, can you fax from it though? That’s gonna be important thing. All this information we have, is that like, you know, five times to an app for that because it’s on the iPad?

Rich Trouton (00:56:40):
No, but seriously, I mean, there, there are some, there are some industries out there that are still, shall we say, heavily, uh, traditional in terms of how they do document handling and just being able to get the, that kind of rapid O C R where you can just look at it and now it’s digitized. Now you can toss it over into a document store. That’s, that’s going to be, honestly, for some, for some very traditional industries, especially in the legal industry, that’s gonna be a big thing.

Charles Edge (00:57:09):
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, I could imagine in print it would be as well. I mean, remember Rich when, when we went to write the next edition of the book and we were like, uh, could you send us the files for the last edition, ? I, I was literally wondering.

Rich Trouton (00:57:24):
I had some of it, but not Yeah, but not the

Charles Edge (00:57:25):
Whole book . I was wondering if I was gonna need to O C R scan the whole thing. , like,

Rich Trouton (00:57:32):
Don’t grab the Polish edition for that one.

Charles Edge (00:57:35):
Oh, right. . But, you know, I’m, I’m sure my Vision Pro would be able to translate that perfectly. Right? Oh,

Rich Trouton (00:57:43):
You know what? Honestly, that’s, that’s something else that would be huge if they, if they, uh, so man, tourists would just look even weirder where, you know, but you know, you now have something on your face that’s doing like auto translation for you on the fly. That would be nice.

Charles Edge (00:57:59):
I mean, would you rather have something do auto translation or lose X amount of business? I, I don’t know. There’s something to be said for, we speak all languages, although, you know, I, I guess I English and or, uh, German, if you’re in the Nordics or whatever, lingua franca to some degree.

Rich Trouton (00:58:20):
But, well, I’m thinking like a few generations down the line, once it’s smaller and it’s no longer mm-hmm. a giant pair of ski goggles on your face, you know, that that would be something that, for example, I could take to, uh, you know, maximin and just look like I’m wearing a pair of glasses and everything I look at gets translated from the Swedish into English for me automatically. And, uh, I never even get lost

Charles Edge (00:58:43):
Again. Don’t even, I so don’t want that because I know that those, some of those roads are named really weird things, , and I don’t want to know what that really means. And also the King’s, what there’s, there’s king’s every nevermind anyways. Um, so I feel like we mentioned M d m client, um, that’s not exactly an a p i, it’s, you know, a binary and frameworks and all that. But, you know, from an a p I perspective, uh, what APIs would be early things people can look for to, I guess, see the direction the tech is taking Keynote. I don’t know. I mean,

Rich Trouton (00:59:21):
I could definitely, yeah, keynote will be a big one. Um, this, this is gonna be real interesting for people writing a pitch deck, for example, you know, you, you have your thing written up and you show up and you pass everybody out a set of goggles and, and just basically, you know, put ’em on and it’s like, let me show you what I really, what we really want to do and have a very slick, uh, presentation set up as opposed to right now where people show up and they’ve got like PowerPoint slides. Well,

Bryson Tyrrell (00:59:53):
You know, I don’t even think it needs to go that far. ’cause um, I, I won’t get my hands on this so bad. When you’re working in Keynote and you go to play the presentation, it has two different modes for you to play the presentation in inside your headset. One is where it’ll show the window, where it’s doing the play for the slides, and then there’ll be a hover window that contains your previous next in notes, and you can position that off to the side. But then they have rehearsal mode where it goes into a full environment. It’s like you’re on the Guthrie main stage, Jay. No. And you have your before afters right next to you, the presentation is on the screen behind you and you can rehearse.

Charles Edge (01:00:33):
Yeah.

Rich Trouton (01:00:33):
Yeah. And you, you turn around and you see,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:00:36):
I think Keynote gets the whole thing about like, yep, you’re working in window mode in the application, and then you have a, a mode where it DIMMs everything because you’re now reviewing your contents. It’s still in front of you, but then you go through a full environment and you’re fully immersed. Yeah. And then you’re like, you’re lost in, you know, I’m now preparing for this presentation I’m going to give. I think it’s absolutely incredible to nails the experience.

Rich Trouton (01:01:01):
That would be great for me, because in my case, I’d be like, I’d have my presenter’s notes just kind of floating in front of me. And then, uh, off to a little bit off to the side, the current slide, you know, this is just my own workflow for, for doing stuff. But, you know, I could out of the corner of my eye, you know, just keep reading my presenter’s notes, but I, I could see what’s going on in the screen, kind of in my peripheral vision. And yeah. That, that would be pretty, that would be awesome. That would be awesome.

Charles Edge (01:01:30):
That’s interesting. ’cause there are, whether it’s handoff or messages, there, there are different APIs that allow for keynote interactivity. Um, keynote not being an a p i, it’s like,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:01:43):
Right, in this case, keynotes not the api, but it’s using those special vision OSS APIs to give you different experiences at different levels. I,

Charles Edge (01:01:55):
Or is it just using existing APIs that happen to have an enhancement for vision OSS next year?

Bryson Tyrrell (01:02:04):
I would say the environment piece is an an entirely new thing.

Charles Edge (01:02:09):
Yeah. But, you know, getting, getting at your initial message, you know, or, or tweet that spawned this entire episode. Um, you know, there, there are the ir, the lidar, the ml, the ai, the AR kind of SDKs. I guess when, when you think about like this experience that you want, if you’re looking at different, I, I guess if there aren’t expressly built a p i endpoints, then how reality kit, the A P I endpoints might have. Okay. Reality take. Go ahead.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:02:47):
That that’s what you

Charles Edge (01:02:48):
Wanna do.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:02:48):
Expand. Um, so like, full disclosure, I rewatched a whole bunch of W W D C sessions today in front from this episode. Um, but yeah, they introduced another, uh, S D K alongside all the others, which is Reality kit, which exposes all the a p I interfaces to take your app and then bring in these new modes of interaction at all of Vision OSS is really interesting because it’s like, it’s like the parallax of oss. Everything’s extremely layered because even in like the, some of their design sessions they call out, they want you to have your app open up in, I don’t remember what the mode is called, so I’m not gonna try and like, give it a non sanctioned name, but like, it’ll, you know, it’ll give you the window, it’s the floating window. But then you can then have that window be interactive, then bring in more three-dimensional augmented reality elements, or bring it in so that it does that, um, uh, immersive mode and then full immersive mode.

(01:03:47):
Like, they want you to layer the interface so that it, it’s not jarring. They never want you to, they never want you to give a user a jarring transition or an abrupt transition. It’s always layers of Ahmad moving in and out of how immersed you are. And it’s, and like, and all those things are wrapped in, uh, reality kit. And, uh, it’s interesting, some of the things you were saying earlier about like tracking, like, uh, for training purposes, like how engaged someone is, apple was pretty specific that, um, uh, all the, all the UI elements that exist in Swift ui, um, have a new hover hover attribute that you can add, or not attribute, but like, you know, a new hover, um, I don’t know what the swift name for it is, but like you can add hover onto it and that exposes the eye tracking piece. But it’s hidden. Like, you don’t, you as the developer cannot observe when they are looking at an object, it’s obfuscated away lower, nor should you

Charles Edge (01:04:45):
Able to,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:04:46):
Nor should you

Charles Edge (01:04:46):
Be able to, yeah. Yeah. That’s a privacy thing. But yeah, you just put dot hover at the end and it, that’s the, it it’s really easy to do that kind of stuff in Swift ui. It’s, you know. Yeah. Um, am I, is it clicked? Is it, yeah. You know, all the, all the different

Bryson Tyrrell (01:05:04):
Elements. It’s very Apple, the way that they’ve done it, where all these existing APIs are natively supported in this new paradigm, but then they’ve introdu they have introduced a whole new set of APIs for being able to take your app and then add on these new modes of interaction.

Rich Trouton (01:05:23):
Yeah. And this is also where we’re gonna see the long tail of Apple and in, in operation where, you know, going back to putting the Lidar sensor in iPad devices, you know, , how long has Apple been planning this and how long have they been laying the groundwork for? I,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:05:38):
I wanna see a show of hands from this panel right here. Like, who actually thought the LIDAR sensor made sense?

Charles Edge (01:05:45):
Yeah. Once you’ve, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, no, the, the, uh, listeners, ’cause this isn’t recorded visually, can’t see. But, um, Marcus, myself and Tom mm-hmm. all raise their hands there.

Rich Trouton (01:06:01):
I gave it a shrug. Well, I, I didn’t really see a point. Well, yeah, I didn’t see the, the reason for it. They could

Bryson Tyrrell (01:06:06):
Do whole room scanning, but I’m still staring at a pane of glass. I’m holding in my hand in order to do anything. Yes. Useful with that scan or live environment interactions. Like, that was my biggest problem with a, with Apple over the years with all this AR stuff, I didn’t get it because it’s like, why am I holding up a pane of glass between me and a physical object that doesn’t actually exist on a surface that does exist, but I can’t like, reach around the iPad nor to actually like, do anything.

Rich Trouton (01:06:33):
You can’t walk around it. You can’t, you can’t interact with it in any meaningful way. And that’s something that I can see,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:06:40):
But I get it now. Vision

Rich Trouton (01:06:41):
Pro actually giving you that. Yes. I can see vision, like, uh, you know, to, to give a, uh, an Amazon example. They have a, uh, function for see this in the room, you know, you, you, you say, okay, and then you do it on your iPhone and it’s like this, this thing appears and you, you know, it’s in your room, but it’s hard.

Charles Edge (01:07:02):
That experience kind of sucks. No offense to Amazon.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:07:04):
I ikea’s got the same thing and, but this, yeah.

Rich Trouton (01:07:07):
Yeah. But this allows it to be so much better because now you can be like, okay, drop it in the room, walk around it, see, you know, if, if, if it’s actually gonna work, see, you know, pull out a measuring tape, that kind of stuff.

Marcus Ransom (01:07:24):
What I saw with Lidar scanning, which, which really impressed me. It was looking at attempts other people have made, and this, this kind of really just lines up with what I’m seeing here with Vision Pro, is all of the attempts everybody else has made with this technology beforehand just seem a little bit clumsy now, where you realize, you know, there’s a reason why there’s here in Australia, five and a half thousand dollars for one of these. It’s like, well, that’s what it takes to actually include every single piece of technology to the degree that they have. Like, you know, we’re not just gonna let you try and shove a pair of glasses in here and have them fog up straight away. No, you’re actually going to, to get the most outta this, you are gonna have to get custom made lenses for this, otherwise it’s gonna be crap.

(01:08:08):
Um, you know, we’ve got this many cameras, this many scanners, all of this sort of stuff. We’re not going try and hang the battery off the back of your head and make you constantly wanna look up because it weighs so much. We’re g we’re gonna put it on on your waist. It’s like the, the LIDAR scanning, when you looked at other technology that had tried to achieve that, it, it just allowed them to go that little bit further. And so much of that for me was, alright, they’ve got the technology. Right now, we’re just looking for the, the killer app, the use case to present itself. Whereas so many of the others were lots of attempts at a killer app and the technology not really being able to deliver what they were promising.

Charles Edge (01:08:55):
ICal was the killer app for the Apple two. Yeah. Lotus 1, 2, 3 for the I B M, you know, uh, desktop publishing in general for the Mac probably. But that, that is, uh, I, I would say for every net new technology that I look at, I’m always looking for that killer app. And I hope it’s not games this time, because that postpones the business impact by five to 10 years in my analysis thus far, what we’re gonna,

Rich Trouton (01:09:26):
I don’t, I don’t see it as games in, in this case, if, if we, if we can also get that haptic, uh, force feedback interface to our hands, I, I can definitely see this in all sorts of ways.

Charles Edge (01:09:38):
Yeah. The

Tom Bridge (01:09:38):
Minority, uh, that’s where minority minority Report tell, you know, takes over. You do it our day-to-day life. Yeah, I was gonna say, I like it. That’s that. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I think that takes us to an interesting pivot point. I want to talk a little bit about how Apple messaged this piece, because we did not see a game in there. I

Charles Edge (01:09:55):
Like that. The

Tom Bridge (01:09:56):
Announcement video we did, we did. Well, briefly, I was gonna say it was not, it was not the, you know, traditional and let’s bring out so and so to show us their brand new game for this platform. We saw it in passing. We saw, you know, we saw it the same way we saw a movie on the screen briefly. That wasn’t the focus of the presentation. No. The, the focus on the presentation was Apple’s determinist, deterministic view of how they see this new platform. And that is in two words, spatial computing. And I loved that framing as a product person. I was like, oh yeah, , gimme that Good Juice . Um, you know, that was, that was exactly what we saw. But what we saw here is an interesting story telling Motif for the Vision Pro that tries to differentiate it from the toy aspect of the Quest Pro or, or these other kind of, you know, uh, headsets that are meant for gaming functionalities. This is something different. This is something that’s meant for computing purposes for work, for a personal enjoyment for personal engagement and productivity, but not for the traditional gaming models that a lot of organizations thought. That’s when actually I got interested. Was that when they started to define that it made a difference?

Bryson Tyrrell (01:11:14):
Yeah. It’s in my notes though. So I will say, ’cause it is directly related to what you just said about the personal experience. I really think the dad was the most tone deaf thing Apple has done in the last 20 years. Oh, a hundred percent. Let’s, and that includes you’re holding it wrong, like . Yeah. Like, I don’t know how they

Tom Bridge (01:11:32):
That Yeah. That one spot. I, I, it, well, there are two things in the presentation that had me dystopian. Um, that was one of them. The other one was the avatar that is used for you in, uh, FaceTime. Um, and that personal re, you know, re representation.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:11:49):
I’m kind of impressed by it actually.

Tom Bridge (01:11:50):
Um, that did not work for, I, I’m impressed by the technology of it. It did not look like a human being, and it did not look like the person involved in that case. It did not pass the uncanny valley check for me in any way. They

Bryson Tyrrell (01:12:03):
Didn’t have to have

Tom Bridge (01:12:03):
Legs. And, you know, I

Bryson Tyrrell (01:12:10):
Yeah,

Rich Trouton (01:12:11):
Right there, huh. It, it’s, it’s, it’s gonna be one of those things that I’d almost rather just have that little static image of me floating in a square that says, or an emojis or amo or a emoji. I’d rather have something that deliberately doesn’t try to look like a person. Well, they’re hitting in an uncanny valley thing where it almost looks right, but it’s just wrong enough that you’re like, Ooh,

Charles Edge (01:12:39):
Yeah. Yeah, they’re in

Rich Trouton (01:12:40):
Charge. That’s gonna be a big challenge.

Charles Edge (01:12:42):
I, I can’t remember off the top of my head, but, um, that is a, a law in ai, ai like the, or at least robotics, the closer it looks to us, the more, um, we hate it, I guess that. But, um, but I, I do still think the concept of the digital twin, and this goes back to the early nineties, I think, um, but this idea that we are a thing, and then in a virtual world, we’re also a thing. And our virtual twin or digital twin is what is in that second world. I, I, I, I feel like, um, oh man, what is the guy who wrote, uh, the, the original wiki before it was called a Wiki, and then they later called it a Wiki. Um, he, he was trying to, in the era where we were moving to technology, he was trying to say, don’t pretend that everything’s gonna be printed.

(01:13:47):
Because Yeah, at the time, they still thought everything was gonna be printed and computer lib Ted Nelson, um, sorry, it took me a minute to get there. Uh, but he, he died on that horse, regrettably for him. Um, he could have been far greater than he prob than history. Probably remembers him as, because he was trying to say in a time when it, we weren’t ready to hear that. Like, don’t worry about the printed version. And I feel like kind of the thesis of, of this idea that we’re talking through, and it, it dates, it, it goes back to the very beginning of the episode when we talked about the nose leading the, the, um, yeah. Whatever. But, um, the, the

Rich Trouton (01:14:32):
Nose leading your face, and that’s how you avoid getting, uh, getting sick.

Charles Edge (01:14:36):
Right.

Rich Trouton (01:14:37):
Um, the, the, the motion sickness.

Charles Edge (01:14:38):
Yeah. But, uh, you know, we will eventually be in a post digital twin type of environment and, and so Right. But, but we, we need the digital twin. And, and this is where Ted Nelson kind of went the wrong direction. We, we need the digital twin until we cross that chasm and can no longer rely on that digital twin, if that makes sense. Um, yeah. And, and go fully vol virtual. But I, I do think it’s, you know, uh, from, for me at least, I, I, I don’t know why I can’t get out of the idea of ides , but for me, I, I, I feel like I’m, I’m now post-digital twin on the concept of IDs, but I, uh, not on anything else, especially gaming, you know, I mean, first person shooters, that is literally your vision. Your your digital twin. Yeah. In a first person shooter, right. , so mm-hmm.

Rich Trouton (01:15:37):
. Well, one thing that’s gonna be very important is gonna be trying not to fake it. ’cause I remember that like Jeremy Clarkson said one time he was reviewing a particular car and he loved the road noise. And he, he’s like, this is really good. I really love it. And then he, it was like

Charles Edge (01:15:53):
A Camaro, I think I

Rich Trouton (01:15:55):
Remember that. Yeah. And then he discovered that it was fake. It was being fed through the sound system for a Mustang. And he was like, and he went straight from, I love this too. Oh, now I hate it. ’cause now I know it’s fake , it, it has to be genuine. It has to feel Right. Or else people won’t accept it.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:16:14):
I think if I had the choice, whatever

Rich Trouton (01:16:16):
That form takes, yeah.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:16:18):
If I had the choice, I think I would probably turn it on the emoji mode over life, life ish avatar. Oh yeah,

Rich Trouton (01:16:25):
Yeah. Yep. Same here. Absolutely. Uh, because you can accept a cartoon of yourself. Yeah. And other people will accept a cartoon of yourself a lot more readily. And it seems weird, but it’s true.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:16:38):
To go back to where Tom originally was getting us on , uh, I will echo his love of, uh, the term spatial computing because it’s, it, it leans heavily. Ar Tim actually kicked off introducing it by invoking ar. Um, but it, it, it is the whole gamut between, it operates mostly in ar but then it can go full vr. And the idea of like how you interact with technology and software across that spectrum. It’s, it’s Apple branding. It’s, it’s gold spatial computing. I’m all for it.

Tom Bridge (01:17:12):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a really great metaphor. Strong work. A plus language a you know, it very clearly delineates what the, what the role of the device is.

Charles Edge (01:17:23):
Yeah. Um, the uncanny valley, that’s what they call the theory that the more mm-hmm. they look like us, the more we hate them. I’ll put a link in the show notes. .

Tom Bridge (01:17:32):
Yeah. There’s a point, you know, where, where you drop into, it’s too close, it’s too close, it’s too close, but it’s still too far away. There’s an asymptotic relationship to where that lands out. And you know, I think that there are ways to get on the other side of it. Um, but it just felt too uncanny valley to me in the, uh, presentation there. Same with the, with the, with the person. Like wearing the, you know, the, the, the, the device around, you know, to capture a memory. And it felt, oh, I was,

Marcus Ransom (01:18:04):
I heard it described as Moof, MOF Tarkin in Rogue One. It was like, okay, it’s impressive they’ve been able to do that , but it’s when, you know, it’s a bit weird. Um, yeah. So,

Tom Bridge (01:18:16):
Sorry, keep Cushing. So,

Marcus Ransom (01:18:17):
So we’ve all bought the first version of Apple things multiple times. Only they see the second version and then get jealous and wanna buy that as well on the third and the fourth. So do, I’m guessing, are we gonna see that happen with the Vision Pro as well,

Rich Trouton (01:18:32):
Guaranteed?

Bryson Tyrrell (01:18:33):
Oh yeah.

Rich Trouton (01:18:35):
That’ll happen.

Charles Edge (01:18:36):
Yeah.

Tom Bridge (01:18:36):
Here’s my thing. It’ll happen, but not to me. ’cause I really don’t see this.

Charles Edge (01:18:41):
Yeah. My Apple Watch one was a slightly different experience where I feel like, I feel like going all the way back to the Lisa, you know, the Lisa was what, 13, $14,000 when it was released? Yep. Yep. But you needed one to write code for the 1984 Mac. I feel like you need one of these to be able to properly, not entirely, but properly write code for, for them. So I’ll get one simply because I have this grandiose idea of a awesome i d e, not that I have, uh, I need Rich Spiegel or someone . I’m gonna actually go that that direction to be able to, to build something proper. But, um, but I’ll get one simply so that I can have the option to write apps, which I may never get around to

Rich Trouton (01:19:39):
Maybe edit for Vision oss.

Charles Edge (01:19:41):
Exactly. Right. How cool would that be? .

Marcus Ransom (01:19:45):
But you’re gonna be too busy playing Oregon Trail on it to actually get around to riding the

Charles Edge (01:19:50):
Hup .

Rich Trouton (01:19:52):
You have died of dysentery in disgustingly real detail. .

Charles Edge (01:19:57):
Or, or if it was in Oculus in like 16 bit detail. . Yeah, there you go. Rendered to look 64 bit

Bryson Tyrrell (01:20:07):
. I really, really want one. Like, it, it hurts how much I want one, because I want to play in this space. Because it’s one of those things where it’s like Apple polished it, it on version one and they’ve got all the UI stuff there for you to work with. And I just, I want to play in this world. I just don’t have $3,500.

Charles Edge (01:20:30):
So who had an M one Mac?

Marcus Ransom (01:20:33):
Yeah. I,

Charles Edge (01:20:35):
We all did, right? Yeah. And then when did you have to get a M two? Like how

Bryson Tyrrell (01:20:41):
Long? I didn’t have to, I

Charles Edge (01:20:42):
Didn’t have to

Marcus Ransom (01:20:44):
. I, I don’t think the, I don’t think Apple, Silicon is a, is a good parallel for this. I’m thinking back to the iPad one where that came out and it didn’t have a camera and it didn’t really,

Charles Edge (01:20:57):
But the Apple watch was far after the iPad. Yeah.

Marcus Ransom (01:21:00):
Yeah. AB absolutely. And I think, and

Charles Edge (01:21:03):
I had a solid three years on that thing. This is

Marcus Ransom (01:21:06):
Also, yeah, the same, same here.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:21:07):
An M series computing device. Like the, the only reason why this is not on my desk, and I’m not talking to you all through this right now, is, uh, I have a three, almost three year old and I can’t just sit in the office to use my computer. So I bought a Mac Pro to be mobile, but like, this thing is

Charles Edge (01:21:24):
Killer. Yeah. So killer for the listener who can’t see

Bryson Tyrrell (01:21:26):
What

Charles Edge (01:21:27):
Yep. What Bryson’s holding. It’s the original Apple tv Ah, . Wait, no, it just looks like the original Apple tv. What is it

Bryson Tyrrell (01:21:35):
Actually? It it is, it is the, uh, M one Mac that I bought the day that they announced it.

Charles Edge (01:21:41):
And for anyone who bought the original Apple TV though. ’cause there’s a point with me making that reference, um, and tried to plug a hard drive into it and had to go through all this special stuff and like, you just wasted your money about 18 months after you bought it. So I, I do feel like Apple goes through these peaks and valleys with the first version is awesome, and able to be used for years and then not so much. And then yes, they are. And I have no clue where we are on that, but I don’t want to call it a hype cycle, but that life cycle,

Marcus Ransom (01:22:17):
You know. But I feel that the idea that this is, you know, as much as we all want them, and we’ll probably find a way to get them, these are not for us. These are very much for the developers to

Charles Edge (01:22:28):
Look out, looking at. The

Marcus Ransom (01:22:29):
Killer app isn’t to build the technology. Yep. And yeah, when the, when the vision se comes out in three years time, that’ll be the one that the whole family gets and is handed out at conferences. And, you know, isn’t gonna be the sort of thing where you’re like, there is no way I’m going to use that thing that’s been on somebody else’s face

Charles Edge (01:22:52):
Who’s got an Apple Watch c question out of the people,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:22:56):
That family member. So

Charles Edge (01:22:58):
We see three Charlie, three people out of five raising their hands, so Yeah. In a few years. But know, to your point, I’m a developer, so I’ll be getting one immediately because it’s cheaper by a fact. It, it’s 25% cheaper than the Lisa was when it shipped. Yeah. And

Tom Bridge (01:23:16):
You don’t wanna miss, here’s my thing, miss the boat. Here’s my thing. I’m not sold yet, and I think it’s gonna take a killer app. Or is that because

Charles Edge (01:23:28):
The question is sucked that bad ?

Tom Bridge (01:23:30):
Well, I, I mean, yes. I, there I I am I, I’m, I’m a huge skeptic in this record mm-hmm. , if anybody can pull this off, it’s Apple. There’s no question about that. Their engineering prowess is legendary. They’ve

Charles Edge (01:23:47):
Shown they’re human interface prowess. They’re

Tom Bridge (01:23:48):
Hu separately and they’re Exactly, yeah, that’s exactly right. Right. They have built a, you know, I, I see that and I can see the strength in the, in the, in the product. What I don’t see yet is a management. What I don’t see yet is a metaphor I can glom on. Well,

Charles Edge (01:24:04):
Are you approaching

Bryson Tyrrell (01:24:04):
That from a consumer point of view? Don’t,

Tom Bridge (01:24:07):
But you, I’m approaching it from a user’s perspective.

Charles Edge (01:24:10):
But you don’t know

Tom Bridge (01:24:11):
That, which is not a consumer perspective.

Charles Edge (01:24:13):
You don’t know that VisiCalc will invent the spreadsheet on your platform until they do. That’s exactly, that’s the, that, and so that, that’s the curve since the listeners can’t see me articulating curves. I’m

Tom Bridge (01:24:27):
Yeah. I’m not closed off to this, but nothing we saw in that video said to me, oh, yeah. Which is the way that I saw that with the iPhone, the way that I saw that with the original Mac. But, but

Charles Edge (01:24:40):
The people who build the platforms never build the killer app ever.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:24:46):
It’s interesting, Todd ever, ever, because like

Tom Bridge (01:24:49):
Safari was the killer app for the iPhone, which means they absolutely did.

Charles Edge (01:24:54):
Google Apps was the killer app for the iPhone.

Tom Bridge (01:24:57):
Oh, I

Charles Edge (01:24:58):
Disagree. Actually, no, let me rephrase. The, the app store itself, the app store was the killer Absolutely. App for the app. Same with the iPad,

Marcus Ransom (01:25:05):
IPhone, and the camera, since the, the camera was what allowed people to create killer apps because it did it in a way that,

Charles Edge (01:25:15):
Yeah, I feel like technology had become so, um, widespread. So, uh, ubiquitous in the ubiquitous computing sense that by the time the iPad came out, the i, the iPhone maybe even that it was up to each vertical and horizontal industry to develop their own killer apps. You know? And, and I feel like Apple’s done a good job showcasing that in a lot of their marketing documentation where they’re like, look how we’re used in these hundred industries, you know? Um, that then trickles down, not, not to use a reaganesque metaphor there, but then trickles down ,

Rich Trouton (01:25:55):
You know, you know, you know something. Uh, I think having used the Oculus quest and, and I like it, uh, the things that I’ve used it for the most, and I think potentially this would be something that would pop up on Vision OSS as a, as a, something that really grabs people, um, is exercise. Hmm. Because people, why do people buy a Peloton bike? Oh, because Yeah. You know, they, they have that interaction with, you know, you’re no longer exercising by yourself. Someone is there. And that is something else that you get with the Oculus quest. If you’re using it for exercise, you get this, you know, this, this person who’s talking to you, who’s helping you through, who’s pushing you, you, because I don’t know about you guys, but if I’m exercising by myself, I’ll stop because there’s nobody else here judging me. Yep. Pushing me. Exactly. And I think that might be actually something that for Vision OSS would be a big initial sellers. Like, here’s a way that you can, you know, do, uh, this personal exercise. It’s still just you, but it’s not just you anymore.

Charles Edge (01:27:06):
Yep.

Rich Trouton (01:27:06):
And that might be something that, that really, you know, powers that breakthrough. Now that said, I, I would love to get the vision oss if someone else bought it for me, but as the current price point. Yeah. At the current price point. I, I’m like, I could pay off my car. . You can buy

Charles Edge (01:27:24):
A car for Charlie. For

Bryson Tyrrell (01:27:25):
Charlie.

Charles Edge (01:27:27):
You have one .

Rich Trouton (01:27:29):
I, that’s not the safest car for $3,400. I want to

Charles Edge (01:27:34):
I agree

Marcus Ransom (01:27:34):
With you. I agree with you, Tom. There was nothing on that keynote that made me say, I want this, I need this. Now. For me, it was more a case of I want the people that have a lot more creativity and a lot more vision than I do to have this So that can

Charles Edge (01:27:53):
No

Marcus Ransom (01:27:53):
Intended create something. Pun. Yeah. So I can then, like I, I saw, I saw this as being the most potential for digital transformation that I’ve seen in a while. What that looks like, I have no idea. Um, and

Charles Edge (01:28:07):
You won’t till you see it. Yeah, exactly. You can’t plan innovation.

Tom Bridge (01:28:13):
And that’s why I’m keeping my mind open. But there is nothing in this, in this, in this V one that has me thinking that they understand the, the field.

Charles Edge (01:28:21):
That’s what’s a number of units they’re gonna produce. That’s definitely Okay.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:28:24):
So my perspective is kind interesting though, because I’m actually your polar opposite Tom. I saw everything I want in the keynote and in the W W D C sessions. So my date,

Tom Bridge (01:28:39):
You want to be the weird dad with the dos on

Bryson Tyrrell (01:28:42):
Not that. No, I, I’m already on the record in the podcasting.

Tom Bridge (01:28:44):
That was the worst . I know. I, I just thought I’d brought that. I just thought, you just thought I’d

Bryson Tyrrell (01:28:49):
Point that out. My, my day-to-day world is writing stuff and building things, and Vision Pro is the infinite virtual workspace that wish I had to increase my productivity. The interface is the killer app for me.

Charles Edge (01:29:10):
If I could write a hundred Lambdas and see how they’re connecting, you should not have a see the JS Lambdas

Bryson Tyrrell (01:29:17):
Man.

Charles Edge (01:29:18):
Well,

Bryson Tyrrell (01:29:18):
Oh God. Chris wants

Charles Edge (01:29:19):
Kill me. Why? You always make fun of me. Me

Bryson Tyrrell (01:29:21):
. They, they’re Lambda functions. They’re not Lamb does

Charles Edge (01:29:26):
. I can call ’em Lambda if I’m, I need to see this. So Chris Mos, I don’t style guides . I, I I

Rich Trouton (01:29:34):
I just thought of something both good and bad, which is that if you’re using this for as your primary interface for work, um, this would mean for example, that, uh, if you have, if you, if your company decided to pursue a hot desking set up mm-hmm. , uh, it stops mattering so much because you pull on the goggles. It has your workspace already set up exactly the way you want

Charles Edge (01:29:57):
It. It might work somewhere that’s out there right now. Yeah. Could pop plant in the corner. It’s, I I can say if, if this, so since you mentioned pair programming earlier, if this was authentic in how I learned to program on the p programming front, there would be a rumble pack that allowed somebody to smack me in the back of the head every time I forgot to Anu ball. I was gonna say, where, when does the smell come on? ’cause you get the odor of the person. Oh, that’s hard. I I, I think back to early days as the designer, the senior designer, I, I don’t, I don’t smell over your shoulder anyways. We’re getting No, it’s notion we’re getting so far out of left field. It’s time for the bonus question, Tom, maybe

Tom Bridge (01:30:47):
Here at the Mack Admins Podcast, we wanna say a special thank you to all of our Patreon backers. The following people are to be recognized for their incredible generosity. S Stu Bacca. Thank you. Adam Selby. Thank you. Nate Walk. Thank you. Michael Sy. Thank you Rick Goody. Thank you. Mike Boylan. You know it. Thank you. Uh, Melvin Vives. Thank you. W Bill Stites. Thank you. Anus Ville. Thank you. Jeffrey Compton, m Marsh McDonald, Hamlin Cruin, Adam Berg. Thank you. AJ Reka. Thank you. James Traci, Tim Perfi of two Canoes. Thank you. Nate Sinal, will O’Neill, Seb Nash, the folks at Command Control Power, Stephen Weinstein, Swarthout, Daniel McLaughlin, Justin Holt. Will Smith and Weldon do Thank you all so much and remember that you can back us if you just head out out to patreon.com/mac ADM podcast. Thanks everybody. It is time for the bonus question. So it is Father’s Day here in the States, and so let’s double down on the dad reference. Best dad joke.

Rich Trouton (01:31:53):
I like to tell my, I like to tell dad jokes, and sometimes he laughs.

Charles Edge (01:31:58):

Tom Bridge (01:32:00):
Nice.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:32:02):
Oh, geez. See, the problem with my dad jokes is it’s when my 13 year old son is next to me and he says something and then I just hit him hard on the spot. And he doesn’t see it coming

Charles Edge (01:32:14):
With the joke, with the joke, .

Bryson Tyrrell (01:32:18):
They’re, they’re all, they’re all, they’re all ad-lib.

Marcus Ransom (01:32:21):
Psychological damage hurts more than physical damage.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:32:24):
Emotional damage. Ain’t

Tom Bridge (01:32:25):
That the truth?

Marcus Ransom (01:32:27):
,

Rich Trouton (01:32:29):
I, I will say that, uh, my girls have a thorough understanding of me. One of my Father’s Day gifts was a bottle that says Dad joke, and it has a loading dialogue on it.

Charles Edge (01:32:40):
Aw,

Rich Trouton (01:32:41):
I will treasure this until I die

Charles Edge (01:32:43):
As well. You should. There you go. . How about you Marcus or Tom?

Marcus Ransom (01:32:49):
I’m, I’m, I’m always a big fan of the, you know, the worst dad joke is the best one where it’s like, I’m hungry. Hi, hungry. I’m Dad and . Oh yeah. It’s all about the reaction. The pure Oh yes. Rage, rage that, that invokes

Tom Bridge (01:33:03):
Is Oh, that’s the

Marcus Ransom (01:33:05):
Punchline.

Rich Trouton (01:33:06):
The way the face twists up to let you know that, oh, they got it and oh, they hate it. .

Tom Bridge (01:33:12):
Oh yes, that is a hundred percent true. I’ve always liked the, you know, the one that my friend Matt tells, which is to say, why can’t you trust an Adam? Well, they make up everything.

Charles Edge (01:33:23):
,

Tom Bridge (01:33:25):
You’re welcome. I’m sorry.

Marcus Ransom (01:33:28):
Charles .

Charles Edge (01:33:30):
Oh God. On the spot. Um, I read a book instead of playing VR games, and it was a novel experience.

Tom Bridge (01:33:41):
Nice. ,

Marcus Ransom (01:33:43):
Ww ww

Tom Bridge (01:33:45):
We’re right back to the sad trombone from the beginning of the show. Folks, it’s been a pleasure to bring it full circle with you, Bryson Rich, thank you so much for joining us.

Rich Trouton (01:33:55):
Thank you for having me

Bryson Tyrrell (01:33:56):
On it. It’s great to be back. And,

Tom Bridge (01:33:59):
And, uh, if folks wanna find you on the internet, what’s the best place for them to go looking?

Rich Trouton (01:34:05):
Uh, in my case, it’s gonna be, uh, dear Flounder dear flounder.wordpress.com.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:34:11):
Uh, you can find me in three places. I am still on Twitter. Uh, I’m sorry. Yeah. Bryson three g p s Don’t ask why It’s that, that’s what it is. You can find me on the Mac, Evan Slack, and you can find me skiing away on Blue Sky that paddle’s over. Like, that’s what it is. I give up .

Tom Bridge (01:34:35):
Yeah. I mean, I, it just kind of is what it be at this point.

Rich Trouton (01:34:38):
Oh yeah. You can also find me on the Maca and Slack at our trouten.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:34:41):
I, I can, uh, do bonus answer, uh, because I went back through iMessage to find the last time I hit my son with something really hard. Uh, so Sam has a bit of a height

Rich Trouton (01:34:51):
Wait, still a joke, right? Yes.

Tom Bridge (01:34:53):
Still a joke.

Bryson Tyrrell (01:34:54):
Sam has a bit of a height issue. You know, he’s got my jeans, he has his mother’s jeans. You know, the kid’s not gonna grow very tall,

Charles Edge (01:35:02):
So, so when he wears your jeans, do they fit him?

Bryson Tyrrell (01:35:09):
Not nice. You got me.

Charles Edge (01:35:11):
Sorry. I, so, like, I got, I had to get Meta dad joke inside. Dad joke, .

Bryson Tyrrell (01:35:16):
So out of the blue on one June 3rd, uh, evening, I tell Sam that he’s really gotta hand it to short people. He says, why? And I tell him it’s because they can’t reach it on their own , to which he said, I hate you.

Charles Edge (01:35:32):
.

Tom Bridge (01:35:36):
Oh, that’s a good one. I love it. I’m gonna, I’m gonna remember that one.

Charles Edge (01:35:40):
Oh,

Tom Bridge (01:35:41):
That’s good. Well, thank you. It’s been another fantastic episode of the Macin podcast. Uh, thanks so much to our wonderful sponsors, uh, Kaji Collide and Simple, m d n. Uh, and thanks everybody. We’ll see you

Charles Edge (01:35:53):
Next time. See you next time. See you later.

Tom Bridge (01:36:00):
The M Men’s Podcast is a production of M Men’s Podcast, L l c. Our producer is Tom Bridge. Our sound editor and mixing engineer is James Smith. Our theme music was produced by Adam Koga the first time he opened Garage. GarageBand sponsorship for the Mac Admins podcast is provided by the maced admins.org Slack, where you can join thousands of maced admins in a free Slack instance. Visit mac admins.org and also by techno missionary Lll c Technically we can help. For more information about this podcast and other broadcasts like it, please visit podcast dot mac admins.org. Since we’ve converted this podcast to a P F S, the funny metadata joke is at the end.